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98%: The State of the DAP
Posted by: fade on Nov 06, 2002 - 10:25 PM
Digital Archive Project

When we first started MST3K-DAP nearly two years ago, the idea of successfully encoding every single non-commercial episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000 seemed daunting at best. 11 seasons, 170 episodes (not counting the 4 'lost' episodes K00 - K03) would be quite a load for any television show, let alone one that runs upwards of 90 minutes a pop. In the first year of the DAP's existance, we encoded over 80% of the episodes from VHS and SciFi reruns. Today , WildCelt released K19 - Hanger 18, bringing MST3K-DAP as close to completion as it will ever be. We can only hope that someday Jim Mallon will release those first 4 tapes to the fanbase, but the practical likelyhood of that happening is not very high, so for all intents and purposes MST3K-DAP is now 100%. That's 170 full episodes, 13 specials, several version 2's, close to 117 GB, and a stack of CD-R's s dangerously close to toppling over on the corner of my desk.


Thanks to all the encoders and tape sources that have worked so hard to bring MST3K-DAP to completion. Thanks to all those who helped with the organization, and those who helped with distribution, including the organizers and contributers to the CD trees. Thanks to Queued and Silicon for their hosting and technical contributions. Most of all, thanks to the Brains who have given their tacit approval of what we do here. One of the founding tenets of the DAP was an abiding respect for the time and effort that goes into creating these shows, and we like to think that we truly are carrying on the original creed of "Keep Circulating the Tapes..."




The completion of MST3K also represents a turning point for the DAP, as our original focus was solely MST3K, and all the other DAPs grew out of that. That being the case, I'd like to comment on the future of the DAP as MST3K moves from the forefront of our operations. We've grown by leaps and bounds over the past year, and done our best to contain the accompanying chaos of an expanded roster of shows and contributers. I'd like to address a few concerns though, pertaining both to current operations and future expansion.


  • New DAPs

    We've had a flood of proposals for new DAPs lately, so I wanted to take a moment to describe what makes a good candidate for a DAP. To quote the FAQ: "The best candidate for a DAPable show is one that has a significant tape trading fanbase already, and isn't widely available through other means." To that description, I would add a few things. First, I do not feel that we should be instituting any new DAPs of first-run shows. Granted, we do have several currently, including Samurai Jack and most of the Adult Swim stuff; there is nothing wrong with those per se, and we by no means feel that we should discontinue any currently existing DAP. However, throwing any and all hot new shows up for DAPping not only dilutes the gravity of what we do by preserving truly rare shows, but also stretches thin the already tenuous ethical grounds on which we operate. For first run show's that are in syndication at the same time, or have a tape trading community, I would suggest a lag of at least 2 -3 seasons. A good rule of thumb would be that if we're updating the masterlist every month to accomidate new episodes as they first air and are then encoded, it really shouldn't be a DAP. Second, DAP is a community, so there really should be strong support for any show that we add. Ideally, new DAP ideas should start out in the forums, gain a following, and then be considered for official inclusion. Which brings me to my next point...
  • Test DAP

    Test DAP started out as sort of an abstract concept to facilitate the types of community decision making of whether or not to officiate a new DAP. I don't think that its function is still quite clear to everybody, so let me just map out how one should go about initiating a new DAP:
    1. Suggestions are brought up in the forums, and a general community response is gauged. At this point it should also be determined if it technically qualifies by determining its commercial availability, syndication, tape availability, etc.
    2. Initial encoding standards are discussed and agreed upon, with consultation with the DAP Elders.
    3. One or two completed encodes are submitted to the Master List under the Test DAP category, along with a news story describing the show and intents of the DAP.
    4. Discussion amongst the DAP Elders to decide whether the show is consistant with the DAPs mission and standards.
    5. Episodes are whitelisted as Test DAP, and a poll will be posted on the webpage soliciting general opinions. An important point to note here is that one shouldn't necessarily vote 'No' for a Test DAP because you haven't seen the show. The whole point of Test DAP is to get the episodes available for people to download and watch to form an opinion, both of the show itself and the skill of the encoder.
    6. If there is a significant support for the show in the polls, a full fledged Master List will be created.

    One could argue that since there's no practical limit on how many DAPs we can have, why shouldn't we just DAP anything that meets the technical qualifications. In a certain sense this is a subjective thing, but the DAP started out because of an intense dedication to a single show, and we don't want to become just a clearinghouse for all the schlock that's out there. We also run the risk of fragmenting the community that the DAP has built around its original shows, something we pride ourselves in.
  • Encoding Specifications

    I'll touch on a few specific points of this in a bit, but I just wanted to reiterate some thoughts about encoding standards. There should absolutely be 100% consistency within a DAP with regards to resolution and codecs, and to a lesser extent things like source consistency and encoding methodology. The one exception to this rule is in Shorts DAP, which I see as sort of a playground for both new encoders and experimentation with various techniques and technologies. While there are some variations amongst the various individual DAPs that are currently worked on, I would like to propose the following as the ideal standards for any new DAP:
    • Video Codec - Xvid: When we started MST3K-DAP almost two years ago, we felt that the MS-MPEG4v2 produced the best results at the bitrates we were targeting. It's subsequent integration into the two-pass encoding tool Nandub only increased this potential, and has become firmly entrenched as the DAP Standard. However, MS-MPEG4v2 is not without it's faults, the most obvious of which being that it is a proprietary codec that is no longer in development and is not likely to make its way into settop boxes or consumer electronics anytime soon. While technically a derivative of the MPEG-4 standard, MS-MPEG4v2 does not produce an ISO compliant video stream. What that means from a practical cross-platform standpoint is that when MPEG-4 capable DVD players do start becoming available (or the rumored MPEG-4 based HD-DVD spec), getting MS-MPEG4v2 files to play on them will be a non-trivial task necessitating at the very least transcoding to an ISO compliant codec and the quality loss associated. Xvid, on the other hand does produce an ISO compliant video stream, meaning that at most you would need to repackage the audio and video into a compatible file format (most likely mp4, more on this later). Additionally, Xvid is under active development, has built in two-pass support, a nd is arguably on par if not better quality than anything produced by MS-MPEG4v2/Nandub. I would highly encourage all encoders interested in starting any new DAP to familiarize yourselves with the process if encoding with Xvid, as it will ultimately produce superior and more portable results.
    • Resolution - 512x384: Though the older resolution of 480x360 is still acceptable, and in some cases adequate for poorer sources, in the long run I'd like to up everything to 512x384. I think that anything animated coming from live sources (cable or DBS) should most definitely be at this higher resolution, and for the most part live action stuff should be as well (unless it really doesn't make sense to, like coming from poor quality VHS tapes).
    • IVTC: Inverse telecine, the process of converting film sourced video or hand drawn animation from 29.970 frames/second back down to it's native 23.976 frames/second. If you are encoding an applicable source, there is absolutely NO reason why you shouldn't be running it through the IVTC process, other than laziness. Telecide/Decimate filters are available for VirtualDub/Nandub, but for those comfortable with AVISynth, I would highly recomend the decomb plugin. Not only does IVTC remove duplicate frames that can otherwise have a visual impact, but by dropping 1 out of every 5 frames, you can potentially gain that much more compression quality, as your extending your available bitrate over 4/5 as many frames. As I said, anything from a film source or hand drawn animation should be put through the IVTC process; the one exception is some of the newer cartoons that are actually composited in Flash. Since it's not really clear whether these are animated with a specific framerate to begin with, it's not as important to preserve the native framerate, though the compression benefits still potentiall exist, and should be evaluated on a show-by-show basis.
    • Filesize: This is always the hard sell; higher quality, bigger files at the expense of portability and downloading. To some extent we approached this from the wrong angle from the start, since MST3K is by far the longest show we archive (at ~92 minutes/episode) we were forced to make some sacrifices on the bitrate of these in order to meet our 1 episode/disc goal. However, once you get into the realm of 22 minute shows (and even 45 minute shows for that matter), you are afford much more flexibility of what you really want to shoot for in the filesize/quality tradeoff. When it comes down to it though, I'll emphasize quality over filesize any day of the week, and would say that the ideal to shoot for is two 22 minute live-action shows/700 MB disc, so 350 MB/episode from a clean source. Flat animation, and especially the Flash stuff, tends to just compress better overall, so for those I can see pushing 3 episodes/disc. In general though, the higher bitrate the better. There are plenty of other 30 MB RealMedia encodes floating around out there...what seperates the DAP really is the 'archival' quality (ok, i know that's pushing the definition a bit, but it's better to aim high). Also, though it doesn't have nearly as great an impact, make sure not to skimp on the audio. i'd say 192 kbps LAME mp3 is ideal, though if you're dealing with mono sources from VHS you can probably go down to 128 without much difference in percieved quality.
    • Container Format - AVI vs. OGM vs. MP4: This isn't really a matter of immediate concern, but I'll put it out here on the table, as it's a direction we'll eventually want to move in. AVI is an outdated, kludgy file format. It's extremely limited in what you can stuff into it, and how you can manipulate it once its in there. Unfortunately, it's still the best suited for what we do, having wide support from encoding and playback software, as well as being an open standard. There are two new formats on the horizon though, and eventually I see the DAP moving to one of the two: OGM (the next generation format from Xiph/Ogg) and MP4 (the official format for MPEG-4 video + AAC audio, loosely based on Quicktime and ISO compliant). The tools and support do not yet exist to make either of these a viable alternative to AVI, but hopefully they will develop in the coming months, at which point we will begin serious discussions about migrating to one or the other.
  • Quality Control - I'll be blunt. I've seen some really crappy looking encodes come through the channels. Either from ignorance, lower percieved standards, or just laziness, there have been several encodes that just don't live up to the quality standards that the DAP holds. Poor source is one thing; I completely understand the unavailability of anything other than a 5th generation EP tape that's been sitting in the backseat of your car for 2 months. The DAP was designed around that notion, which is why we have the system of version 2 releases and actively encourage those with better source than an existing encode to redo it. The problem lies in sloppy encoding techniques; capture artifacts, poor cropping, jagginess resulting from improper resize methods, oversaturated white levels, improper deinterlacing. These are all errors introduced by the encoder, and are all totally avoidable by taking the time to learn the techniques and asking for help when necessary. In every case where I've deemed an encode unfit for release, I've come back to the encoder with specific suggestions on how to improve it, and more often than not they've then come back with a better looking encode. We understand that many people are anxious to 'give something back' to the DAP, and we actively encourage new encoders, though they should realize that it's not always a simple process. It's frustrating to work on an encode for days, investing hours and hours of CPU time, only to be shot down because you didn't crop out the VCR noise at the bottom or you have buffer overrun errors in the capture that you thought wouldn't be noticible. The senior encoders in the IRC channel are always willing to take a look at samples and provide feedback, both general and specific. When dealing with some of the particularly nasty looking source material that we have, it's very much a trial-and-error process, so you shouldn't be discouraged if your first couple of tries are rejected. Furthermore, nobody should ever be in a rush to get an encode out the door. We're not in the business of pre-airs or trying to compete with other groups to get last night's episode out. Better to let a capture sit on your harddrive for weeks while you work out kinks than rushing it out the door just for the sake of getting it out. On the same note, I would rather see no encode at all than a half-assed attempt, so if your capture rig can only do 320x240 at 20 fps, just sit this one out. Nobody will think less of you for not contributing.

    A quick note on audio while we're on the subject: As we've gone along, we've spend a lot of time refing our filterchains to clean up all that ugly VHS and otherwise analog sourced video, relegating audio to the backseat. We really should pay as much attention to audio as we do to video, especially on older VHS that has noticible tape hiss or distortion. Master List 2 does have a seperate rating funtion for audio quality, and we should strive to get that as good as the video whenever possible. With that in mind, I'd like to invite any of the audiophiles in the community to write up a good guide dealing with audio cleanup and restoration to compliment the encoding guide, which currently focuses mostly on video cleanup.
  • Do Not Taunt the Newbies - This hasn't been too big of an issue lately, but it tends to come in waves, so I'll just try and head the next one off at the pass. If you're in IRC or the forums and the newbies asking dumb questions annoy you, just /ignore. I'd rather see a newbie get no responses than being chased off by the technocrats. If you want to see a more detailed description of my feelings on this subject, you can dig up my numerous posts in the forums. That is all.
  • Invader ZIM - I debated whether or not to bring this up. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, just ignore this section. If you do, I will just say the following. The DAP has no intentions of changing any of our current content relating to Invader ZIM. Two important points of note with regards to this are A) The website at dapcentral.org does not, and never has, provided access to download episodes of Invader ZIM, and B) The DAP does not, and never has, provided any services in exchange for monetary payments. That is all.


I'm sure that none of you actually read this far down, so I feel comfortable giving out my personal email address at this time. If you hang around the IRC channel, you're likely familiar with eDonkey and it's oft infurating behaviors. I have long maintained that eDonkey is the Zen P2P app, and should be treated as such. Therefore, I am holding the 1st Annual DAP eDonkey Zen Haiku contest. Send your entries to fade@entropism.org, and the winner will get a special surprise from Fattaile.


Of course, we welcome any feedback and suggestions to the points above; feel free to post your thoughts in this thread or address specific topics in the forums. Thank you, and DAP on you monkeys...




Note: This got a bit long, but I'd encourage everyone to read through it all. There will be pie and punch afterwards.
 
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98%: The State of the DAP | Login/Create an account | 18 Comments
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Re: 98%: The State of the DAP (Score: 1)
by Unarmed (unarmed@dapcentral.org)
on Nov 06, 2002 - 10:51 PM
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Insert not-getting-pie-and-punch joke here.

As an additional, those interested in what I hope to be a future wing of the DAP batallion should check out the DVD thread in the general forum.


Re: 98%: The State of the DAP (Score: 1)
by Pinski on Nov 06, 2002 - 10:55 PM

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Very insightful read fade. I like to see updates about the DAP's position every once in a while. The DAP is pretty much your baby, while the rest of us are suraget mothers, so I like to hear your opinions of where the DAP is and where it is going. Just two comments though.

1) I'm really happy we are as done with the MST3K DAP as possible. MST3K has been definately one of my favorite shows of my entire life, and what originally brought me to the DAP. However, I still think that "The Little Golden Robot Awards" and "TV Wheel" need to be encoded before we are truely done. Of course I know I am nit picking, but that's the DAP in me about completeness. Also that doesn't count all of the V2s that have been discussed, or the possible DVD project on the horizon. But as far as getting V1s of everything I still push for someone to encode those two specials.

2) IVTC is a very important process for encoding cartoons. I've been encoding for a while, and I'm still not 100% sure I'm doing it correctly. I use the decomb plugin but I used it with an .avs script that when I open the file 1/5 of the frames are gone automatically. I know you always talked about playing through the entire file in V-Dub to do this. I don't know if this produces the same result or not. If anyone else can test this or contact me about it to do a test I would be happy to do so. Otherwise, Fade I recomend that you, or someone else fimilar with the process, write up a IVTC faq because I personally think it deserves it because it can be a confusing and complicated process. If more information is out on this topic then the likely-hood of encoders following this process is better.

All and all, I'm very proud of the DAP today. Even though I didn't encode any MST3K episodes myself, I have helped distrubute and such. Also if it wasn't for the DAP I wouldn't be the encoding fool I am today, and I wouldn't know nearly as much about the videos that I download, nor would I know that other people out there aren't satisfied with the quality of the bulk of the encodes out there. So to Fade, the rest of the elders, and all the other memebers, thanks for helping make a community that I can be proud of.


Re: 98%: The State of the DAP (Score: 1)
by algomeysa on Nov 07, 2002 - 05:35 AM

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I have a friend that has some tapes of the 1991 Turkey Day. He doesn't have ALL the special sketches (that is, he didn't manage to tape all 24 hours or however many it was), but he does have some of them. I don't have the means to digitally encode them, but if someone was interested, possibly I could copy the tapes and mail them. Would that be of interest, even incomplete, or is that something other people already have and just haven't gotten around to encoding?


Re: 98%: The State of the DAP (Score: 1)
by DNAldy on Nov 07, 2002 - 08:49 AM

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Well, I DID read all the way to the end. I'll take my cookie now, thank you. But seriously....
I strongly support your position on raising the DAP standards, even at the cost of bigger files or longer encoding times. The whole point is that we're doing this for keeps. The better the format, the more it's worth keeping.
Technology has an infuriating habit of racing ahead just when we've got a usable standard. We just have to do our best to balance out the demands of better tools versus widespread support.
Anyway, congratulations and thanks to everyone whose hard work benefits all of us.
Keep the faith!
Peace ~ Donna


A very interesting and encouraging read (Score: 1)
by Seiya on Nov 07, 2002 - 09:33 AM

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I found the DAP about two months ago. I've mostly lurked around, quietly downloading eps, building up my shared collection, and occasionally cursing the Donkey . I'd like to extend a huge THANK YOU to the people who make this possible. This is the most exciting project I've been a (silent) part of.


Re: 98%: The State of the DAP (Score: 1)
by truent on Nov 07, 2002 - 09:50 AM

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Single tear...


Re: 98%: The State of the DAP (Score: 1)
by Henry on Nov 07, 2002 - 11:56 AM

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I was actually waiting for another State of the DAP, because from what I have seen, this thing has grown since the days of seeing if fade had a new episode to release or going through the cryptic booyaka site to see if another thumbnail had appeared for an episode (a signal of an impending release, I remember the confusion over Santa Conquers the Martians, as the episode did not appear for days after the thumbnail was posted).
Lately, I have to say I personally am confused by the DAP. MST3K was the perfect project with the perfect user base, but lately I just feel like there are a million people out there encoding every episode of seemingly everything, and I keep hoping the DAP never falls into this category.
I never saw this project as a "release group", and explained to several colleagues who craved MST3K episodes that this was not an XDCC Bot/Ratio FTP/Trade thing, but more of a community project.
Lately on IRC I don't see the same environment as before; I've been out of the loop (and country) over the course of following the DAP, so it was a shock to come back to a channel of dozens rather than the comfy few from before. That said, I've found my sharing of opinions that used to initiate discussion to be either completely ignored or actually subject to some sarcastic comments from people I have never heard of and -- therefore -- assume are simply in the channel to grab the latest episodes.
I feel like I'm coming off as a fogey, an out-of-towner, or -- at the worst -- an Agar.
But still, like I said, I was waiting for a SOTD, and felt like that meant it was time for everyone to chime in an opinion.
Hell, I think the last comment I posted was when the previous SOTD was posted.

And just a reminder, GI Joe is on Cartoon Network Monday-Thursday at 12:30 in November.


This doesn't mean the MST3K dap is done. (Score: 1)
by fnord (fnord@themgt.egg)
on Nov 07, 2002 - 02:17 PM
(User info | Send a message) http://www.infinitypointone.com
The mention of the V2s is poignant -- there are a number of older black and white episodes where the white levels are completely oversaturating the screen (some of the Phantom Creeps episodes come to mind). While this could be a result of source tapes, I've never personally seen VHS get this bad.

That being said....

A lot of us had downloaded the majority of the MST episodes before the new whitelist, and more importantly, the new ratings system, was in place.

It would be enormously beneficial to us if people could update their lists on the masterlist, especially with regards to encoding quality. After watching an episode, please rate it. Don't just download an episode, watch 30 seconds of it, then rate it -- watch it all the way through and make note of rough spots.

I believe that fade's original goal was to have all encodes be 3 stars or above -- please keep this in mind when rating the episodes. If the encode isn't 90% of the quality you think it could be, rate it accordingly.


Re: 98%: The State of the DAP (Score: 1)
by roldgold (dlsimon1@PLZNOSPAMemail.com)
on Nov 08, 2002 - 04:14 PM
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Now that we've reached this eventful milestone, I'd like to bring up something that could possibly help our little community. Ever since I joined up 2 months ago, I've been downloading (and uploading) the MST3K episodes like crazy. The large number available seemed pretty daunting at first, but I've already gotten around 140 of them now. Pretty soon, I will have everything... that's available currently.

What I'm getting at is that we have 'all' of the MST3K eps. available through the project, but not all of them are available to download. We are at the mercy of whatever our fellow brethren (and sistren - is that a word?) are currently sharing. I don't feel like being an ass and individually asking for every one of the non-available eps to be put back on someone's hard drive.

What I propose is that we set up a plan where certain people agree to keep certain episodes avilable at any given time on their hard drive. Let who you think is dependable to be part of this list, and whatever amount of space that person is willing allocate on their drive, give them the duty of sharing those eps. Although I don't think you would want to put TOO many eps. on a person's list, because unless they have a fat upload pipe, it would take forever waiting in their queue to get something. And since people share stuff, then archive it and delete it all the time, you can't just get by with only marking certain eps. for this plan. You'd want to include them all. That way, if nothing else, one person at least has it available.

Good idea? What do you think?


Re: 98%: The State of the DAP (Score: 1)
by Optikill_Medaze (Optidill@frightenstein.com)
on Nov 09, 2002 - 12:33 PM
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haiku;

again cd burned
MSTK0-3
E-Deny OK




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